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09 Jun 2009
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

Hello,

I want to make the community aware of the scams that are going on concerning purebreed dogs.

There are some "breeders" who are listing purebreed dogs for sale. These dogs are being listed as 100 - 300 euro and are breeds that are highly popular.

Most recently a post on Bulldogs was made for 100 euro. This is obviously a scam as bulldogs can not reproduce naturally and need expensive medical care to even breed or deliever naturally. This is why bulldogs are so expensive and typically run between 2,000 - 3,000 dollars per pup. The French Bulldog breed is also a breed that is expensive to buy because there are not very many of them.

A true breeder of dogs will be very concerned about where their puppies are going. They will ask lots of questions about you and expect you to ask lots of questions too. They will not balk at answering questions or producing paperwork for you look at.

*If a dog is advertised as registered then registration papers should be produced, no excuses! Pedigrees should be able to be seen on request also.

*Expect to be in contact with a breeder for many weeks before getting a puppy.

*Look at the parents and ask for paperwork to be produced before any money is given.

*If the animal is advertised as vet checked or health checked, ask for proof. All vets give reciepts for work done and keep records of work done. Even in Italy.

*Expect to sign a contract with a breeder. This will detail the breeders responsibilities and guarantees as well as spell out what the breeder expects of you. The best breeders will take any dog back that they have bred at any time and for any reason. This should also be in the contract.

* Never pay for a dog until you have all of the paperwork from the breeder and you have the dog in front of you to be picked up. Too many scams run off the fact that people will do and pay anything for their "perfect" pet and will not give you the paperwork or the pet.

* If you are concerened about the quality or ancestery of your pets, do not buy from any pet stores or from breeders that you do not feel comfortable with.

And Finally,

* If you are looking for a show dog or to breed, look for only quality dogs from quality breeders. The only dogs allowed to be shown or registered in Italy are registered with FCI or AKC. No other registries are accepted for show.

*Purebreeds are typically more expensive than mixed dogs because good breeders put a lot of work into their dogs and work to producing good quality puppies. Many people will try and scam people just because they see "money". A good breeder is more concerned about the puppies than the costs.

Please be careful!!

16 Aug 2010
Jay
Posts:9
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

I only wish more people had a better understanding of the fact that purebreeds are riddled with health problems as a result of years of inbreeding in an effort to meet the AKC's expectations.  Veterinary medicine has proven that pure breeds have signifantly higher incidents of genetic diseases, such as, heart diseases, skin disorders, corneal dystrophy, ear diseases, and sadly the list goes on and on; all resulting in a shorter life span for the dog and less time you can spend loving that member of your family.  Not to mention the increased vet bills as a result of these ailments and diseases they are afflicted with, simply becuase they are prue breed.  Unfortunately, pure bred animals often come from puppy mills, which confine these poor creatures to dismal, cramped conditions without ever conducting health testing.


Adopt, adopt, adopt!  It is against Italian law to euthinize a healthy animal, so thousands of animals spend their entire lives in tiny, feces infested cages, with minimla human contact.  There is an abundance of shelters in our own community.  How about finding one of the MANY strays roaming our streets.  Pick them up and give them a loving, forever home.  If you're just dying for that German Shephard breed, it's highly likely that you can find one in the shelter or on the street. Adopt, adopt, adopt!

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/adopt/tips/adopting_from_shelter_rescue.html

16 Aug 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

I am sorry, but Jay, Please do not spread lies and misinformation.

Purebreed dogs are at no higher risk for health diseases than are randomly bred dogs or "Naples mutts". In fact some of the WORST health issues I have seen are from dogs who were randomly bred.

In-breeding is a tool and when used correctly, results in setting specific traits in a line. A smart breeder works this out before hand by using a mathematical equation called the "Inbreeding Coeffcient" which is used in more than dogs (I first used it in Cattle at 17 yrs old).

Experienced and informed breeders health test their animals BEFORE breeding. I have had the chance to work with some of the WORLDS top breeders and these people know more about their dogs and lines than you can ever imagine. They also spend thousands of dollars to test their dogs health. I myself have genetically tested several of my dogs for health. That is why pure breed dogs cost more than mutts, because people have spent years planning and testing before breeding.

I do agree however, that if you are simply looking for a companion or do not care about the lineage of a dog, the adopting is the way to go. However, do not spread the lie that mutts are healthier than purebreeds because it is not true.

Most breeders will guaruntee a pups health, the HS will not. Good breeders will take back their pups at anytime for any reason. HS will not. Good breeders will know their lines and can tell you what traits a dog will have. HS can not.

It is up to the PUBLIC to do their homework and research where they are going to buy a dog from. If the breeder is bad then do not buy a pup from them. Only buy from health tested stock. Good breeders will talk to you all day about their dogs and their lines. Bad breeders only want to make money. If people would stop buying from bad breeders, then there would be no puppy mills because there would be no money.

The choice is up to the individual. Pure breeds are no better or worse than mutts, mutts are no better or worse than purebreds. I have the joys of working with both.

Please do some research before you post. Do not spout lies to further your own point of view.

I will continue to work with purebreeds as I have for years. I will also continue to work with mutts as I have for years. A dog is a dog is a dog. the only difference of owning a purebreed is you know where it comes from.

 

 

17 Aug 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

And just to prove that I can back up my position, why not researh a little book by Dr. George Padgett, DVM, canine geneticist, author of “The Control of Canine Genetic Diseases” . In fact, I will let you borrow mine if you like.

Dr Padgett is most well known for this book as well as the genetic study that he did on cross bred dogs. He found more instances of health issues in cross bred dogs, than he did the population of Cocker Spanials, which is a pretty popular breed in the states.

Now, I can show you several books and studies done that proves cross mixes ae no more healthy or unhealthy than purebreeds and vice versa.

Show me even one scientific study that proves otherwise. (hint: there isnt one)

17 Aug 2010
Jay
Posts:9
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1124
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535334
http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBK-4808M5M-3&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2003&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1432822156&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=01a04e26d99e5d025b90fffc00167371


Sites provided by my mother, DVM, PhD; a veterinarian for over 22 years, and my father a professor of veterinary medicine.  

Any responsible veterinarain will advise you to seek out a mongrel as opposed to a purebred as a result of their propensity for increased genetic diseases and disorders.  

17 Aug 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

Then I am sorry to say that your mom is one of the worst informed and misguided vets i have ever seen.

These articles DO NOT PROVE that purebreed dogs are not as healthy as mutts.

All these articles prove is that dogs have health issues, as do humans, cows, sheep, pigs, and any animal with DNA. So i suppose now, that humas should stop having kids because we will pass on our heart disease, hip issues, bad eyse, skin issues allergies........

or maybe we should stop eating lamb because breeding them has bred out their ability to naturally produce thiamin???

The difference of purebreed dogs health issues is that they are traceable and are able to be contorlled or fixed. MANY institutions are working on canine genetics and cures for disease. How many places are working on mutt health issues???

For example: Ataxia is a nuerological disease which has been present in many breeds (and mixed breeds), through research there is now a genetic test that can be done to determine if a dog is clear, carrier or affected. Now there is no need to produce a dog who is affected ever again.

Cross breed dogs ARE JUST AS LIKELY to have a health issue as any purebreed because there is no perfect animal of any species. Surely your mom would have learned this in school just as i did. All animals have some issues and cross breeds are no different. Because they come from the same genetic backgrounds and have the same genetic possibilites (ie a dog is always a dog and can never be a CAT), then all dogs are likely to have health issues.

And also, if ALL vets chose mutts, then why are there so many vets who breed purebreeds???

You are over generalizing and spreading lies.

I do agree with adopting animals. All dogs should go to loving homes. But that doesnt mean that purebreeds are less than mutts. People have a choice and that choice is individual.

So stop spouting hate and lies. I made this post as an informational thng. Not for you to hijack it with your stupidity and lies.

And please have your mom forward me her info so i can make sure i never use such an illinfomred and highly biased vet.

The vets i use love dogs no matter if they are mutts or pure breed. Too bad you cant do the same.

And here if you say all dogs have issues, here are the results of some of my dogs, heart disease free by a cardiologist who did an echocardiogram, and ataxia clear from genetic testing...

http://offa.org/results.html?all=ridalls

17 Aug 2010
Robert
Posts:11
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

I typically stay away from these type of conversations but seeing as I read almost all the forum posts posted I feel I need to say one thing. It seems that every thread I have read on here that has this Angela posting on it turns into a huge hatefest. Though I can argue neither nor there on who is right I can say that when someone comes out so aggressive and hateful I tend to tune them out and not listen to them at all. I  would have to say Angela that you may disagree with what someone posts and you are entirely entitled to that. That being said, however, there is no need for you to be so negative or condescending. This is a site for us to help eachother not to bash and name call and make people feel stupid. All I am basically saying is Treat others how you want to be treated. You could easily disagree with someone with being a total you know what about it. Just thought id throw this out because im sick of all the bashing and ill treatment. Sorry to post a bunny trail post on this purebreed post and im sure Jay that your mother is a highly intelligent woman. And btw this is not the first time nor first person ive heard that mixed breeds typically have less health problems than pures. Just saying.

17 Aug 2010
Jeannie
More than 50 messages post
Posts:59
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

I've got to agree with Robert on this one. Admininstrator: please don't post replies that verbally attack another "poster". Even though there are no "curse" words, the negativitity is there, basically as a form of slander. Posts should state opinions or facts, but not attack anyone in particular.

I enjoy reading the forum posts, but really get turned off by the negativity and "attack" mode of some responses.

17 Aug 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

I have to say, the ORIGINAL thread was intended to help people differentiate between the REAL breeders selling dogs and the SCAMMERS that were posted at the time(this thread was made over a year ago).

The NAH Admins have done a fantastic job of keeping scammers away from this site.

And I am sorry if you feel that me saying that any vet who stated that purebreed dogs are less healthy than mutts is highly biased and misinformed is offensive, but it is the truth. Any well educated vet KNOWS that dogs are dogs and are ALL prone to health issues, whether they come from a top breeder or the local shelter. I also would never spend the kind of money I do with a vet that felt this way and wish to take my money and support to those vets who ACTUALLY CARE FOR THE ANIMAL NO MATTER WHERE IT CAME FROM!!   

No animal is perfect and ALL animals have health issues. Saying otherwise is a fallacy and only spread lies and hate. It also perpetuates the the bad laws that are cropping up in many countries, even this one.

And when someone comes on here and wants to SLAM others for owning purebreeds and saying they all have issues, this is not true and needs to be corrected so people can be correctly informed. Purebred dogs are not anymore likely to have health issues than mutts. That is the scientific truth. That is not an opinion, it has been studied and proven to be true.

The argument that mutts are healthier is perpetuated by those who have an underlying agenda such as PETA and the Humane Society. All one has to do is look at the laws they support and introduce around the world and it becomes quite evident.

A person should not be made to feel guilty or lied to just because they want to own a dog, no matter if the dog is purebreed or not.

I have posted SEVERAL articles that stated only true information concerning animals and I will not stop giving people correct information so that some of these issues can be helped.

Why was this post drug up anyways??? So Jay could shame and lie to those who would seek out a purebred animal. I will not shame ANYONE who chooses to own only cross breeds, nor will I shame or lie to those who wish to own purebreeds.  But Jay would rather throw a guilt trip and lie to further his own agenda.

The dog you own is your choice. I will fight for your right to make that choice. I will not STAND for those who wish to take that right away from you. And Jay does just that by spreading such lies and hate.

This post is highly offensive to those who work with breeders and work to control and eliminate genetic defects. It is HIGHLY offensive to those who have spent YEARS studying genetics and reproduction as well as thousands of dollars to make sure that they breed only healthy individuals. Jays post does nothing for either the community or those who actually do care and love dogs, whether they be mutts or crossbreeds. I hope that people read this and do not blindly follow such lies but rather find their own truth.

 

 

18 Aug 2010
Jay
Posts:9
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

"Lies and hate."  Interesting, pretty certain that I did no such thing.  I merely intend to encourage people to seek out the healthy, homeless animals that flood shelters around our community and around our world.  Not only could you save a life and have a grateful, loving pet, but also you will signifiantly lessen the burdeon of our host nation and avoid isues such as the one which drove you to start this post.


Not sure what agenda you speak of when you refer to PETA or the Humane Society, except to save lives of animals all over the world and to educate those whom otherwise wouldn't be made privvy to the atrocities commited against animals each and every day at the hands of humans.  

I never said that my family or any other veterinarian doesn't own purebreds or doesn't treat them with the same love and compassion that they would any other animal.  You really shouldn't make things up for sake of argument.  I did however say that a responsible veterinarian when asked will advise pet owners to seek out animals which aren't  part of this "pure bred" incest and not bred specifically to meet the AKC's recomendations of a certain breed.  Furthermore, they will highly advise you not to purchase animals from pet stores, which unfortunately, often purchase dogs from puppy mills where there is virtually no regulation of breeding practices.  However, the AKC organization will not make any such recommendation because it is revenue driven...a responsible vet should NOT be!

In 2003 Consumer Reports issued a warning saying, "demand for ever-more-perfect purebred dogs has concentrated bad recessive genes and turned many pets into medical nightmares."

Sadly, in 2000, the AKC instituted a requirement that any male dog bred more than 7 times would have to have a $40 DNA test.  This inspired a boycott of AKC registration by breeders in Iowa and Missouri (2 places where puppy mills prosper).  The Iowa Breeders Association urged members to register dogs through alternative organizations.  Responsible breeders who value breed health over profits have an intetrest in accurate testing and reporting, but there is nothing to keep the less scruptulious to do so.  The AKC hasn't publicized plans to encourage its member clubs to update their breed standards, and the organization continues to register puppies from the matings of closely related dogs.

The point is that these laws are being put in place for ethical reasons; to force breeders to be accountable.  Sadly, a sufficient enough number weren't, therefore there was a need for said laws to be enacted.

Again, my intent is not to encourage people to seek out the many shelters throughout our community where you can save a life and help allievate the suffering of these animals.

My personal perspective is that when choosing to bring an animal into your home it should be to have a loving companion, not to preserve the breed or for profit.  If you are just dying for a specific breed....go to a shelter, there are tons of mutts and pure breds alike, especially here in Naples, where many seem to throw away their animals.  But, that is only my opinion.  Which I am indeed entitled do Angela.  You may want to speak to someone about your anger issues.  No one attacked you, yet you felt the need to respond with such seething hate and animosity.

I have written the Panorama and am working to get the word out via flyers around our community regarding the animal shelters and how we can help.  Even if you can't adopt at this time, you can donate food items as well as your time.  These animals will live the rest of their lives with little to no human contact if someone doesn't step in and help raise awareness.  Together we can help.

18 Aug 2010
d
Posts:30
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

Wow Jay, you are quite the wealth of information.  A family member who is vet (for the dog post), a European doctor (in the trash is ruining our health post)!  Do you by any chance know any great babysitters?

I'm kidding of course!

19 Aug 2010
Jay
Posts:9
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

Yup, just go to the Teen Center on Support Site and they have a listing of the Red Cross certified babysitters.  ;)

20 Aug 2010
Jonathan
Posts:7
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

Great info and I couldn't agree more. When there are so many animals desperate for adoption, why not help ease that burden and save a furry friend's life? Would you mind giving me a few links on adoption places close to support site or Lago Patria? Thanks.

21 Aug 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

If you would like to adopt, contact Animals Without Limits. They know many shelters that will offer many different dogs. You will find the goverment run shelters are really against adoptions here and you will have a hard time getting in on your own. This is not like the states.

Also, please know that shelter animals may not be steralized, up to date on shots or well socialized. It is also more possible that they will have mental issues due to living in an area which houses 100 + dogs.They are also not more healthy than purebreeds. I say this not to scare but so that you know what you are walking into before you visit a shelter.

I have seen them first hand and at times, it is not pretty and not easy to see and take in emotionally. I have held pups in my hand as they died of Parvo, I have had to help put down dogs because their hips were too bad to allow them to live. I have treated dogs with every known disease here from the easy and curable things like hook worms or round worms to the devastating and often fatal Leishmanisis. All of these were cross bred animals that either came from the street or from shelters. You never know what issue you will come across in these dogs.

And to say that these dogs are more healthy is a lie. Please tell that to my friend whose cross bred dog was just diagnosed with hip dysplasia. She is now looking at a very expensive surgery to fix her one year old females hips. This dog was adopted from here. And now they are looking at the possibilty of spending a ton of money to fix her hips only to have it fail and put her down. Her hips are that bad that even surgey may not be able to fix it. Its very heartbreaking for the dog and for the family that loves her.

 

22 Aug 2010
Jonathan
Posts:7
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

Adoption is never without its own set of problems, but I would much rather pay for an animal's well being than for information on a lineage that I really care nothing for. We have had quite a few friends adopt animals while being stationed here in Naples and for the most part, I have heard nothing but good things. As with owning any pet, one must be entirely prepared for the long-term costs. I feel that's one of the largest problems facing animal adoption not only here, but anywhere for that matter. Too many people are looking for that "quick fix" and are unprepared for these long-term costs. Education is definitely key. Great forum once again and thanks to everyone for the info.  

22 Aug 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

And that is my point entirely. Its up to each individual to determine what they would like to do, either adopt a shelter dog or buy purebreed. Doesnt matter to me as long, as you say, people are prepared to take care of the animals.

However, I will not lie and say that any of these animals are 100% completey without issues. Anything with DNA is going to have health issues. Thats just the way it is.

I strongly disagree with lying and using emotional tactics to fuel a biased and hate filled point of view. And that is what is happening when someone comes on here stating lies and misinforming the public in the manner it was done.

I do advocate  adoptiong if you do not care about pedigrees or showing. And i do advocate buying purebreeds from a good responsible breeder if you want to own a specific breed. Nothing wrong with either choice as long as it is well informed and the people are willing to make the comitment it requires, physically as well as financially.

My original post was aimed at the time, to those who were looking for specific breeds, and at the time, i was noticing a lot of scammers (and not just in dogs either!). It ws NOT to promote anyone to buy rather than adopt, It was purely for informative purposes so people would not get scammed. A lot of people do not know the dog world and do not realize how scammers work in this field because they do not talk to breeders or regularly deal with things like this. Since I do know the dog world, I talk to breeders all over the world, and I know more about the dog breeds, I thought it would help others to look for things that scammers will pull like stating that the dog is registerd and never producing papers, because the dog is usually not purebreed at all but a cross breed that someone sold to the tune of hundreds of $$$, IF they even get the dog at all!

Joanne all ready made a nice and informative post on adopting. I dont think we needed anyone to come on here and lie and shame people for making a choice. I actually think it would be better for all but the original posts to be deleted and the thread locked for further comments. I am not happy that the thread derailed from the informational aspect as it was intended to someone spouting nothing more than hate and lies.

23 Aug 2010
jason
Posts:31
Re: Buyer Beware when buying Purebreed Dogs!

As much fun as it has been to keep up with this thread..come on enough is enough.  There is very good information for both adopting and buying a purebred in there weeded with all the bs.  It is like peta vs whoever they fight (everyone?) both sides have good agruments with backup proof to support them...and both say the others proof is misleading and unreliable.  Just agree to disagree but there is no need to degrade or beat a dead horse (sorry peta..just an expression).