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04 Oct 2010
Carla
Posts:7
Reduction in Force!

Last week the Naval Region Commander (CNRE) put out information on the reduction of positions and consequently on the reduction of local national employees supporting the U.S. Forces in our area. What is interesting is that of these positions, NONE are personnel that are retirement eligible. There are quite a few Italian employees that could be asked to retire (since they have reached the age of 65 and already have a pension) , but the US Government does not want to do what is right. Since they are not on the CNRE list of positions to get rid of (I wonder WHY?), they cannot be touched. 

There is a very high un-employment rate in Campania, and what the US Government is doing is
removing individuals that are new or the last one hired in a position if there is excess.

 The easy way out. This approach is against good company business practices. Read what Defense Secretary Gates is proposing. Looking at Senior leadership first. This is the easy way out.  Many retirement eligible Italians have held positions between 30-40 years, and few receive the same entitlements (fuel/home gas) as U.S. Active Duty. That is not right. Is the the Italian Union leadership teaming with the retirement elegible Italian employees and allowing them to keep their positions, as they also are friends with
those people? This is not right. U.S. leadership is not stepping in to do what is right. The retirement eligible Italian employees need to be released.
They have pensions and probably not supporting family members. The new hires or recently hired Italian employees should be given the opportunity to provide for their families and/or begin a life as a worker. And not ADD to the local un-employed. U.S. Officals are not setting a good example and this is rather embarrassing. Now we can not save all of the positions, however, the retirement eligible persons should be the first to be relieved, allowing their understudies to move up, and continue the flow of employees moving
up the corporate ladder. In addition, some of the Italian employees will have only two weeks to prepare for a life changing event. CNRE has had this project since NOV 2009, and just now are letting people know that they have days left at work! That is not right. Please voice your thoughts, talk with your friends, co-workers and maybe we can get this into a discussion topic with the CNO during his visit here! We, the U.S. community should set the example and do what is right for our very supporting Italian workers!!

04 Oct 2010
Reason
Posts:3
Re: Reduction in Force!

??

04 Oct 2010
sherlisa
Posts:27
Re: Reduction in Force!

in response to REASON. i take it you don't work with the local nationals. here's a little insight as to why they may want to go on strike. have you ever started your period at work and not been able to purchase a tampon or a pad even though you work for the store. have you ever worked 12 years everyday your scheduled and then you need 3 days off because your sick and can't come in because you are throwing up with a cough and fever only to be told we don't have enough staff for your shift to be covered so you have to come in until we can find a replacement (which doesn't come). it's not as though you may think since the LN here are contracted and and union when one strikes they all can't come in. if you have noticed the salon and other LN contracted vendors don't strike and its because they are not union affiliated. so the next time you want to be snarky remember they NEED these jobs. they wouldn't want to jeopardize what they can count on which is a paycheck.

05 Oct 2010
Mary Jane
Posts:36
Re: Reduction in Force!

Actually, there are plenty of jobs in the US that work the same way and you can get fired for missing a single shift at many US jobs too even if it's because of a completely valid reason (you should feel blessed if you are not familiar with holding one of these jobs).  And layoffs often work the same way in the US. The Exchange and commissary and services on base are here to support the US and NATO forces personnel and families, not the local economy.

05 Oct 2010
Mary Jane
Posts:36
Re: Reduction in Force!

After re-reading the initial post, I had to add....I hope though that the reason given in the initial post was not the actually reason for someone losing their job.  I would be disappointed in our service management if this was really the case.  Just because these issues happens in the US as well as here, doesn't make it right in either case.

05 Oct 2010
Lissa
Posts:8
Re: Reduction in Force!

Sherlisa, I do not believe Reason was trying to be a jerk about your post. I myself when reading was confused as to where this was coming from.  I do want to thank you however, for your post because I myself (probably along with others) had no idea or clarification on this matter towards the LN.  I am sure this has to be frustating to you and unjustice, but please do not be hostile or use sarcasm to make your point it will only distance others from understanding, and the voices of the LN will not be heard. Best of luck and I hope that a good solution can come out of this ordeal, and everyone here in Naples- military and LN can live happily.

06 Oct 2010
sherlisa
Posts:27
Re: Reduction in Force!

first off i am an american spouse who has been fortunate (good and bad) to work with and under LN's. i would like to say that say in the states you can get fired for whatever the boss deems necessary but not here. The LN's are on contract. if it is written in their contracts you MUST BY LAW you are obligated to abide by it. im not saying it's right or wrong the simple fact is it's the law and we cannot change it by complaining about it. as far as people loosing their jobs that happens more often than not. people looking from the inside out don't know the behind the scenes work that goes on. as far as the NEX being here to serve the military forces of the US, NATO and not the LN's, let me give you some insight into where the NEX money goes. 80% of the annual revenue received by the NEX is given back to the MWR so that we can have money for disct trips, command recognized organizations can have money to utilize their facilities, the commissary. 10% goes to paying the employeess of NEXCOM and our retailers. that's the SOLE purpose of the NEX. to provide our military members and families with the best value money can offer across the board. The italian goverment has a navy, air force, army, and national guard. They are the ONLY italians who can shop at the NEX or commissary. it's not a matter of it being here for the betterment of the local military community it's about working 25 plus years for a company where you don't have the rights to shop. if you sit and talk with the LN's they have been working for NEXCO since theres been a base in naples. i just think that if it were i and i have given my time to a company for "x" amount of years i would feel a little frustrated. I think that alot of us americans get here and it's such a culture shock, status shock for some and the only way we know how to handle it is by complaining or saying rude comments that generalize an entire country of people when we could be trying to find a way to meet in the middle after all we are in their country.

07 Oct 2010
Angela
More than 50 messages post
Posts:89
Re: Reduction in Force!

You do realize its not just LN's Jobs they are cutting right??? They have cut 3 GS us hires in the last month alone from my work place. Plus more before that. Its very difficult to find a job here as a spouse, especially if you want full time. And child care is just as difficult to find. Unless you want to work at the CDC, which its obvious most people dont.

So no part of this is easy for any one. The american economy is just as bad as anywhere else. If there is no money coming down, then there are no jobs.

As far as not being able to shop at the NEX, dont really see why you would want to anyways. Most of it is overpriced junk, I get much better quality and better prices shopping out in town.

Overall, i am thankful that I finally found a position that is in my career field. I would think others would be happy to have a job and money coming in, especially if it were for 25 years.

Plus, I do work with LN's and they are one of the best groups I have ever worked with.

08 Oct 2010
Mary Jane
Posts:36
Re: Reduction in Force!

If someone is terribly unhappy in thier job or the stipulations that come with thier job, they should leave it and work somewhere else.  In the bad economies we've had the last last many years, many are happy just to have a reliable paycheck.  I worked at a country club for many years in a service-related job, that didn't give me any rights or priveledges at the club just because I worked there.  I accepted the job for the paycheck, not for added perks.

09 Oct 2010
M.
More than 100 messages post
Posts:102
Re: Reduction in Force!

I believe government employees stateside do not enjoy exchange/commissary benefits like they do overseas, so I guess the situation is pretty similar as far as benefits go.  All purchases at the NEX/commissary are tax-free, just like gas coupons, and that is a benefit/entitlement which is regulated by the SOFA agreement and has nothing to do with employment benefits.  As for the layoffs, as some PPs said, LNs's employment is always by contract, whether it is a permanent (which basically impossible to get fired) or a temporary one.  While most jobs in the States are at will, once you are hired permanently in Italy it is basically impossible to be terminated.  As for the time off, LNs' contracts allow generous time off for sick leave, maternity leave (which allows several months of leave before and after the delivery, time for breastfeeding during the first year, while still receiving 100% of the current salary for the first few months and at lower rate after those few months), etc., which significantly exceeds the terms of the FMLA (which maintains your job, with no pay, up to 3 months I believe).  If a LN is sick, he/she will simply need a statement from the family doctor certifying the illness.  The employer has the right to send a physician to ascertain the validity of the illness, but there is a cost to send such physician, which is charged to the employer.  One last thing I wanted to add is that, while in the States a retiree (or anyone else for that matter) is allowed to hold as many jobs as he/she chooses, in Italy a retiree who receives a pension is not allowed to hold any other regular job (other than freelance).

09 Oct 2010
truth
Posts:4
Re: Reduction in Force!

You have got to be kidding me right? Ok, let me ask all of you some questions... What would happen if the United States Government decided to do one of those, you know, what are they called??? Base Re-alignments? such as they have all over the United States and the world for that matter. How many people both U.S and Italian would be out of a job if the base in Naples simply closed? I myself live and work here, but as a United States Tax Paying Citizen I have recommended it to my congressional representatives, and I know many other are recommending the same thing concerning this base and many others overseas.  In Truth there is no reason, None at all for a base to be here. I for one am sick and tired of seeing millions of dollars dumped down the drain overseas when that money could be utilized to help the starving people in our own country. The Truth is sometimes hard to hear, but that is the truth.

09 Oct 2010
Cristina
Posts:25
Re: Reduction in Force!

I think Carla was complaining about the criteria used to downsize: why cannot people who are 70 years old go first (since they have a pension and no dependents, she said)? I think Carla made clear that the reduction is inevitable...

09 Oct 2010
M.
More than 100 messages post
Posts:102
Re: Reduction in Force!

Cristina - The answer to that question, then, is very simple.  As other people have stated before, those people (who I do not believe are 70, although they might look like they are :)) who are not let go are those who have a permanent contract.  Those who are let go are the ones who do not hold permanent contracts and have temporary ones which often cannot be renewed by law.  One cannot hold a temporary contract for ever, and the ultimate goal is to have that turned into a permanent one.  Should this, however, not be possible, the temporary contract will not be renewed and the worker will be out of a job.

09 Oct 2010
Cristina
Posts:25
Re: Re: Reduction in Force!

Cit. M. wrote:
Cristina - The answer to that question, then, is very simple.  As other people have stated before, those people (who I do not believe are 70, although they might look like they are :)) who are not let go are those who have a permanent contract.  Those who are let go are the ones who do not hold permanent contracts and have temporary ones which often cannot be renewed by law.  One cannot hold a temporary contract for ever, and the ultimate goal is to have that turned into a permanent one.  Should this, however, not be possible, the temporary contract will not be renewed and the worker will be out of a job.

M. is this what you have been told on the US side to justify the reduction of personnel? That is a lie. First of all I KNOW that some people are over 65 because I work with them. Consequently they have a pension and also make two or three times what a young LN makes. Their birthdays are not a secret to the Commands they work for and HRO. This is a fact. Also, the RIF is affecting people with PERMANENT contracts! And that is a fact as well since I know people who are at risk of losing their jobs. So, I do not know what rumors you have heard on your side of the world. What I am telling you is the truth. God is my witness!

10 Oct 2010
M.
More than 100 messages post
Posts:102
Re: Reduction in Force!

Cristina,

Did I understand correctly, that LNs are receiving a pension AND the current salary?  I did not think that was possible.  Where does the pension come from?  I just want to make sure I understand correctly.  They retired from the current job and then re-entered the workforce under that same job?  I'm a little confused...Yes, they might be over 65, as the limit is 67 for regular permanent contracts, while certain kinds of contracts can go up to 70.  I honestly did not hear any justification, but I know people who have been laid off and who told me that only the non permanent workers were affected, at least in their department.  I suppose every department may be affected differently.

11 Oct 2010
Cristina
Posts:25
Re: Reduction in Force!

1) "LNs are receiving a pension AND the current salary? "

No, LNs who reached the age of 65 do not need to receive the pension unless the employer (the US Gov.) let them go.

2) "Where does the pension come from? "

LNs are hired under the italian law, pay taxes in Italy, the italian government monthly retain money from the paycheck: after 35 years of service or at the age of 65 you are entitled to receive a pension.

3) "They retired from the current job and then re-entered the workforce under that same job?"

No, they have never retired from the current jobs. According to the italian law they can go home tomorrow and receive the pension. However, by law they can still work after 65 if the employer (US Government) decides to keep them .

4) "Yes, they might be over 65, as the limit is 67 for regular permanent contracts, while certain kinds of contracts can go up to 70".

By law, they age is 65 for the entire workforce no matter the comntract.

5) I know people who have been laid off and who told me that only the non permanent workers were affected.

The RIF affects people with permanent contracts. People with temp contracts may not be renewd.

11 Oct 2010
M.
More than 100 messages post
Posts:102
Re: Reduction in Force!

'Consequently they have a pension and also make two or three times what a young LN makes.'

What do you mean by this then?  To me it sounded as if you were saying that they are receiving a pension and they are also earning salary.

Also, 65 is the minimum age to receive a pension, not the maximum.  Also, with a contratto di collaborazione you can continue working past that age.

11 Oct 2010
Cristina
Posts:25
Re: Reduction in Force!

M.

with all due respect you are missing the point. Read Carla's post one more time.

11 Oct 2010
Carla
Posts:7
Re: Re: Reduction in Force!

Cit. Cristina wrote:

M.

with all due respect you are missing the point.


That's right. The point is: if you HAVE to downsize, let the people with a pension go first...then younger people with no dependents... then...

Do you get it?

11 Oct 2010
M.
More than 100 messages post
Posts:102
Re: Reduction in Force!

Cristina,

I know exactly what you're saying.  However, as someone as has posted before, the law here does not allow to downsize according to the criteria you have presented.  Whether it is fair or unfair, that is how it is, that is what I was trying to say.  We can talk about it all we want, but this discussion is not going to change the law.

Carla,

That is YOUR point of view, not a universal law according to which downsizing should occur.  The local law, obviously, does not follow such criteria.

12 Oct 2010
Kathy
Posts:20
Re: Reduction in Force!

Please voice your thoughts, talk with your friends, co-workers and maybe we can get this into a discussion topic with the CNO during his visit here! We, the U.S. community should set the example and do what is right for our very supporting Italian workers!!'


From Carla's first post it seems that she is aware of the law but disagrees with it and wants to see it changed. 

The way the Italian's do things with regards to hiring and firing are the same everywhere, not just on the base. My guess is that the US government has nothing to do with who gets hired/fired.  I know that off base if you 'know someone', you can keep your job until you are probably 100 :) If you dont have connections your chance of finding a 'legal' job is pretty low. MOST employers do not want to hire employees legally b/c of the amount of taxes they have to pay so they either hire someone and pay under the table (which is why the unemployment rates are so high, yet so many people work) or they hire you with a temporary contract that says you are self employed/a contract worker so they dont have to pay anything on you, you have to pay a LOT of taxes on yourself, they can fire you at any time and yet you, the employee get NO benefits/incentives (and the Italian government offers a lot! ) As screwed up as Italian bureaucracy is...when you can enjoy the rest Italy has to offer... the good out weighs the bad. :) 

Thanks for bringing this up Carla.
Truth- I feel the same way and have often thought of where to start...congressional reps is a good idea! it makes me sick how many millions of our tax dollars have been dumped into the pockets of local bosses and gone to aid things like drugs and human trafficking : (

24 Oct 2010
truth
Posts:4
Re: Reduction in Force!

Well at least a few of you get it... The original poster does not... We, The United States have no obligation to do 'Anything', ANYTHING for you. Some of you think, for some reason 'WE' owe you something, you have some sort of sense of entitlement...Why would I, or my country owe you anything?? I could really care less about doing anything for anybody that doesn't really appreciate the job they have anyway, its all Cafe' and Cigarette breaks, how many hours do you actually work every day.. Of for that matter, how many days per week do you actually show up for work? at what time do you actually show up for work? at what times do you actually leave from work?? how much time do you spend on your cell phone on the job, surfing shopping sites on the U.S governments dime and time??? bear in mind that there are quite a few of us that are monitoring your activities, as we should do to the fact the U.S government is not gettng a favorable return on there investment, meaning people are not actually doing any work to earn the paycheck they take home. The whole ghist of the original post is, well... Stupid... Wh y should we and quite a few other countries do anything for you, or feel like we owe you anything, if it were not for us and many other nations, this part of Western Europe would be speaking German right now. How many American lives were sacrificed to help insure Italy and the rest of the world remained free, how many French lives, how many Spanish lives. Those of you that have jobs, those of us that have jobs should thank God every day for having them because the world is coming to the point were companies are doing more with less human intervention...I could go on all day, would it do any good, doubtful when the whole structure of a workforce is built on the 'Domani' attitude.

25 Oct 2010
M.
More than 100 messages post
Posts:102
Re: Reduction in Force!

Kathy ~ I wanted to clarify that the temporary contracts do come with benefits.  The only difference is that the contract does not have to be renewed at the end of the term, whereas a permanent contract is truly for ever.  The ones you are referring to are the ones that freelance professionals use to do their business for a one time project or something similar.  Even a temporary contract is, in my opinion, better than the 'at will' kind of employment we have in the U.S., where you can truly find yourself on the street one day with absolutely no forewarning.

28 Oct 2010
Kathy
Posts:20
Re: Reduction in Force!

M. - I dont think we are talking about the same thing. My husband has been employed for the past 6 years we've been here and has worked with a temporary contract that is continually renewed. Not one employer that we have found will hire with a normal legal contract b/c they will have to pay too many taxes. He has a contract that says he is a temporary employee and he pays his own taxes which THEY remove from his check before he gets it, it's not a freelance one that he will pay his own taxes at the end of the year. He can be fired at any time and we are not eligible for any Italian benefits nor can we use this type of contract to get a home loan, car loan etc..(totally understandable, I wouldn't want to loan money to someone with a temp contract either) Because he is married he is eligible for about a thousand euro a year bonus from the government and an additional amount for each of our 3 kids but b/c he is under this temporary contract instead of a normal one we can not receive anything. I was employed while pregnant and should have gotten maternity benefits but b/c my contract was temporary I wasnt eligible. My sister in law has worked for the same business in Pomigliano for 11 years and it's the same thing. Of everyone that I know here in this region, friends and family I can think of maybe 4 (2 employees of FIAT, one for ENEL and one at a large clothing store) who are truly legal. I say truly legal b/c it's against the law for a company to have a permanent employee like my husband without allowing him to be 'on papers' as they say here. We've wanted to buy a home for the past 6 years but can not find a way to get a fully legal job/contract other than paying people off which is how MANY people do it. You pay a 'middle man' 6-10% of what your house is worth and he 'hires' you with a full contract so you can buy the house and after 6 months you get the loan and he 'fires' you. You never really work it just says that you are employed by this fake company. You get the references from any real estate office :(  It stinks but it's life....

28 Oct 2010
Kathy
Posts:20
Re: Reduction in Force!

M.- ps. in my first post I had referred to employers 'off-base' so i'm presuming that's what you were speaking of as well. If you were clarifying what temporary contracts are 'on-base' then I have no idea. If you are familiar with base procedures and laws I'll certainly take your word for it, but all of my info is concerning off base employment. sorry if there was any confusion :) kathy

28 Jan 2011
Tyler
Posts:3
Re: Reduction in Force!

From Original post..."Many retirement eligible Italians have held positions between 30-40 years, and few receive the same entitlements (fuel/home gas) as U.S. Active Duty. That is not right." The United States Government does not ship "Pop-Tarts" and "Coca cola" to Gricignano Di Aversa for the Needypolitans to consume.  If that was the case, and the Needypolitans were given access to OUR facilities, first off we'd have to build a new shopping mall and stock it with 5x more clothing and food because they'd all be cleaning it out and selling the stuff out in town...

18 Feb 2011
NicoleX
Posts:13
Re: Reduction in Force!

Angela,

I think you are very lucky that you're working with nice LN here...

I wish I could say the same!

Most of them, (where I used to work) are Lazy & the only thing they care for,

is how many cigaretts they're going to smoke & what's the new gossips.

It's really hard if you have to do your job & everyboby else's job at the same time,

just to please the customers.

And, if you dare to tell anything to them... the answear is:

I'm not going to get fired 'cause I don't do my job. I'm permanent here!

And, I don't think that's fair to the Americans or, to the people that respect their job & their customers.

I was working with the "American Standards" and the Italians were angry, because they told me

I make them look like they don't work! In States if you don't do your job...you're out!

Here...you're Always in!

The NEX & the Commisary ARE here to support the Americans NOT the Italians...

and unfortunately it's the opposite Happens!

I'm looking foward to go back to States & I'm hoping to be able to have my job back,

because my years in Naples were a HUGE mistake!!!!!